CABO Fight!!

I know I’m going to hell for this! ūüôā

Below is a series of emails on the CABO mailing list.

But first here’s a photo of some of the better known vehicular cyclists:


They recently had a conference but didn’t invite me! I would have gone as an “online journalist”. Haha.!topic/caboforum/i-ByCW0xur4
Paul Wendt
Apr 5

Can all those parties who are arguing PLEASE be respectful of each other?

There have been some excellent comments posted here by John Forester, Dan
Gutierrez, and numerous others.

I really don’t care about who’s right on what I consider hair-splitting.

I would appreciate it if people could be respectful of each other when
discussing these issues on this list.

All of the above have contributed greatly…and it would be nice if we
could all respect each other.

Paul Wendt
John Forester
Apr 6
This is not hair-splitting; the discussion concerns the characteristics
of leadership, good and bad, which is of great importance to the welfare
of CABO. It is also of great importance to the welfare of the new
organization being created under the slogan of I Am Traffic. Less than
two months ago, in the email discussions of that group, Gutierrez was
involved in a very similar exchange concerning the meaning of the words
that he had written, which resulted in his public expressions of anger
such as we have read in the CABO list. When I suggested to him that we
conduct a private examination of the grammar of his sentence, to show
that the meaning transmitted to other readers was not what he had
intended (giving him the benefit of the doubt about motive), he
haughtily and publicly, refused.

In this discussion, I informed Gutierrez that “It has been commonly
argued in many places for many years that these exceptions were enacted
for the benefit of cyclists.” His immediate reply was: “What does this
have to do with me?” I was obviously making no claim that he was
responsible for making that argument. But he should have known that his
unqualified statement that these exceptions were written by [bicycle]
advocates provides ammunition for those making that argument. Any leader
of an organization with a controversial agenda (as both CABO and I Am
Traffic are) needs to understand the social milieu in which that
organization has to operate, and to compose his statements so that they
both reflect his views and prevent misleading interpretations by others.
Gutierez’s forceful defense of his statement: “Au contraire, the words I
originally wrote were factually correct. ¬†Advocates did add the words,”
again shows that he fails to understand the difference between specific
accuracy and the social context in which those words operate.

I repeat: this is not hairsplitting. It is discussing the
characteristics required for good leadership of an organization that has
to operate in a context that makes it controversial. In that respect,
Gutierrez’s words and actions give him a failing grade.
– show quoted text –

John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481 ¬† ¬†fore…
Dan Gutierrez, LCI #962, CABO D7 Director
Apr 6
I simply don’t care what you think. ¬†That you imagine yourself as an arbiter
or judge of leadership and social skills is fascinating from a purely
psychological standpoint, given your long history of alienation and
polarization within the bicycling advocacy community and your single handed
poisoning of the term “vehicular cycling”, but none of makes any difference
to me.  That you see my disagreement as anger which justifies personal
attacks from you is simply a tantrum on your part and a rather poor attempt
at character assassination.  I will be adding your email to my delete list,
since you’ve made it clear that you seek to smear, and I’ve had my lifetime
fill of your personal invective.  This is the last time I will respond to
you on the CABO Forum list.

– Dan –
– show quoted text –

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Apr 6
I agree with John.

I have met Dan.  A leader listens and takes notes about ideas.  Some are
great, some are so-so, and some don’t work. ¬†That is being a team member and
a team leader.

Dan listens and then corrects your grammar.  Notes are never taken.

This is not a leader.  This is a dictator.  I, too, give Dan a failing grade
as a leader. – Frank

—–Original Message—–
From: cabo… [mailto:cabo…] On
Behalf Of John Forester
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 8:49 AM
To: cabo…
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] He said/she said, and mudslinging…can’t we all
just get along?

– show quoted text –
– show quoted text –
Apr 6

You accuse John of “personal invective”. ¬†Who is more at that than YOU?! ¬†If
there is a poster child for “invective’, your picture would be there. ¬†You
are the Prince of “Invective” (and I am using your word here and there is no
way you can dispute that you used that word.).  There is no person better at
“invective” than Dan Gutierrez.

Your mind is sharp and your tongue is sharp.  Your ability to be the
leadership of CABO is severely lacking.

When you tell a long standing member of CABO that you “simply don’t care”
about his opinion, you are deferring long standing standards to your own

I “simply don’t care” about you (your words and quoted). ¬†You are CABO
baggage and will cause the end of CABO.

Is that your mission.  If so, you are doing a fine job.

I am jumping to “I am Traffic” and I hope you will not do this.

I like them.  We really do not need a bully in this, which is what you are.

Have a nice life and good luck to what you think you are adding to
bicycling, although you are sadly misdirected in your efforts.

You are a piece of Work (I substituted Work for what I was thinking that
starts with “S”.)

I am done with CABO.  You put the lid on it for me.

I have other and more positive Forums to be part of.

I am for the positive part of cycling and forwarding it to the Cities that I
deal with. – Frank

—–Original Message—–
From: cabo… [mailto:cabo…] On
– show quoted text –
Donald Shupp
Apr 6

You’re absolutely right, although I feel that John was perfectly in the clear for defending himself. He showed great restraint in not calling Dan an ass, as much as he may have felt like it. That guy can block all of us from his discussion if he chooses, because when the debate gets too warm for him to handle, that’s exactly what happens.

Donald Shupp
– show quoted text –
Pete van Nuys
8:33 AM (6 hours ago)
This is embarrassing.

—–Original Message—–
From: cabo… [mailto:cabo…] On
Behalf Of Dan Gutierrez
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 9:57 AM
To: fore…; cabo…
‚ÄĘ show quoted text –


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